Jodi Picoult on the theory behind Shakespeare’s plays

In this bonus episode from The Penguin Podcast, bestselling author Jodi Picoult shares her theory on the true author behind Shakespeare's plays that inspired her new novel, By Any Other Name.

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Bonus Episode 5: Transcript

Rhianna Dhillon:

Hello, and welcome to another special bonus episode of Ask Penguin from the Penguin podcast. I'm Rhianna Dhillon, and today I am delighted to bring you a little bit more from our wonderful and fascinating conversation with Jody Picoult. A little while ago, the multi-award winning author came into our book Filled studio to talk about her new book By Any Other Name. The dazzling historical novel tells the story of two women centuries apart, one of whom is Amelia Besano, who might just be the real author of Shakespeare's plays. In our historical fiction special we spoke with Jodi all about her detailed research into Amelia and the evidence that helped her with her Shakespearean authorship theory. And lemme tell you, it was very convincing. Throughout the novel, Jodi attributes to her female protagonists many lines that she believes could only have been composed by a woman. So I asked her which ones she really believes were written by Amelia.

Jodi Picoult:

I truly believe that there are some plays that absolutely were her. You know, Hamlet I've sort of set up for you a little bit based on circumstances in her life.

When you add to that, the fact that with the rise of female Elizabethan and Shakespearean scholars, there's been a lot of talk about poor Ophelia in Hamlet, and why she's suicidal. And a lot of women who are studying that play as academics believe that Ophelia is pregnant and unmarried. And if you read the text, Hamlet is very baldy. He probably was trying to fool around with her. And by the time she finds out she's pregnant, Hamlet is pretending to be mad. Everybody else is in a major political scheme. She tries to get help from Polonius, from laertes, from Gertrude, the Queen. Everyone turns her away. And ultimately there's that beautiful scene where she has gone truly insane, and she is giving away herbs to everybody. The one that she keeps is Rue, and she says she's going to wear it with a difference. Rue is a known abortifacient of the time.

So if you wanted to spontaneously get rid of a pregnancy, you would take Rue. So for that reason, I think women are starting to see a different side of Hamlet. Again, I don't know how much Shakespeare would care about that, but Amelia at 23 was kicked out of a house because she was an unmarried pregnant female. I have always personally loved Romeo and Juliette. It is my favourite. I know a lot of people think it's super pedantic, but I don't know. I've been very happily married for 35 years, and I'm still waiting for the guy who speaks in a sonnet with me. But Romeo and Juliet is the only play where the Heroine's age is mentioned. It's mentioned three times. It's 13. That is the same age that Amelia was when she was given to the Lord Chamberlain as a mistress. And in Romeo and Juliet all the conversations around her age are whether she's old enough to have a sexual relationship or not. Again, I think that's pointed. It also is interesting to me that someone, I believe that she had a relationship with the Earl of South Hampton --

Rhianna Dhillon

Who is so hot in this book, by the way.

Jodi Picoult:

He's so hot. His paternal grandfather's name happens to be Montague, which is kind of cool. So I find that very interesting. But the play, where I think we lay all the cards out on the table is Othello. So Othello is actually based out of a 15th century Italian short story written by a man named Cynthio. And it was not translated until the 17 hundreds, and it was translated into French and Shakespeare spoke neither French nor Italian. It's worth mentioning. The original source material only mentions one name. It's Desdemona. And for years, a lot of scholars said, well, where'd Shakespeare get this name Othello from? How interesting. The tragedy of Othello, the Moor of Venice. Well, in the play, there's this little couplet where Iago, who is the villain, talks about a series of metaphors. He talks about a monkey, a goat, and the door of truth. In the town of Bassano del Grappa, Italy, which is where Amelia's from, there is a very famous fresco of a monkey, a goat, and a woman representing truth between two arch doorways. Also in this main square were two apothecary shops at the time. One was called the Moor. The other was run by a man named Otello. There are two different versions of the play Othello, the first was published in the first Corto. The second was published a few years later in the First Folio with all the other works attributed to Shakespeare. And there is a difference between the works of about 160 lines. Something also very significant happened between those two publications. Shakespeare died. We know he didn't write the 160 lines because he's dead. Someone else did. And the lions are almost exclusively given to the character of Testimony Servant. They are a soliloquy that is widely considered the first feminist soliloquy in all of theatre. It's about how women have the same needs, flaws, revenge schemes that men do, because men teach it to us. And that should terrify men. And of course, the name of the servant who speaks this is Amelia. And there's a point when you're doing your research where you think this can't all be coincidence.

Rhianna Dhillon:

Yeah. Yeah. Incredible.

Rhianna Dhillon:

Well, if that sparked your curiosity and you want to hear more from Jodi, then simply scroll back through the Penguin podcast feed to find our historical fiction special episode. Plus, there are loads of historical fiction titles mentioned that are must reads, and you'll find loads more great episodes and author interviews in the feed as well. I'll be back with more Ask Penguin Podcasts soon. But in the meantime, why not drop us a line? We'd love to hear from you. And in the next series we'll be putting more of your reading related questions to authors and penguin colleagues. So get your questions in for a chance to be featured. You can email us at Penguin podcast@penguinrandomhouse.co.uk, or click the link in the show notes to go straight to the podcast page. As I say, we'll be back with more Ask Penguin episodes of the Penguin podcast very, very soon. But thank you for joining us on this reading journey so far, and I look forward to bringing you more recommendations, interviews, and publishing insight soon. So until next time, go on, say it with me. Happy reading.